Growth Over Market – 9 contentions of leadership. A keynote presentation from Facet5 Live 2022.

Hi, everyone. I have unmuted myself, so you might get some ding dongs in the background as people enter the session. Seems to be a nice little doorbell noise. So welcome. Thanks for joining this session. Be great. If you want to introduce yourself in the chat, just please do. Just so so we can see your name. Most of it’s on your username and your profile, but to explain your role and where you work, that would be fantastic just so that we can put some context to it. Hopefully we’ll have time for some breakout discussions towards the end of the session. If not, you know, just an open Q&A, I’m sure we’ll have time also for some questions as well. It’s absolutely fine. Nicola has already said we’ll try and keep an eye on the chat. So, if there’s any burning questions as we go, of course, do just either unmute, or type them in the chat. So I’ll introduce myself briefly. So my name’s Zara Whysall. I am research and impact director at Kiddy & Partners and T-three so for those of you who aren’t familiar with either of our organizations, we come together over the last couple of years really as two organizations to become part of the Gately group. So kiddy & Partners are specialists in leadership assessment and development and T-three specialists in leadership and management development and culture change as well. So slight differences in emphasis, but two organizations with very natural synergies and expertise. And my role really is to conduct and synthesize research to underpin what we do essentially, and to support our clients with challenges that they’re experiencing. So like many of you, I’m an occupational psychologist by training and oh, if you would’t mind muting yourself that would be fab. And I’m also an associate professor at Nottingham business school at NTU. So lots of hats to be juggling here. The work that Facet5 have kindly invited me to share today, some of the work we’ve been doing around this concept of growth over market. I’ll explain what we mean by that. But basically this was triggered really by our client’s interest in coming out of the pandemic, wanting to understand how they can really accelerate growth, not just recover, but accelerate growth after the pandemic. And what we mean by growth over market is growing and evolving faster than their competitors. For many it’s that. But it’s not just limited to sort of corporates listed on the Stock Exchange. We also hear similar things from our public sector clients. So wanting to accelerate progress or accelerate growth or just accelerate change at a faster pace than even the norm for the sector or just for themselves, even to sort of get unstuck from ways of working that they know that they’ve been stuck in for some time. So, Jill, who’s the CEO for Kiddy and T-three, she asked me to do some research into this and basically the question was, so organizations who managed to achieve this growth over market and sustain it over time, what do they do? And particularly, what do the leaders do? So see that’s know, the market that we operate in supporting leaders. So what are the mindsets and behaviors of leaders in these organizations who managed to achieve this growth over market? So in today’s session, that’s what I want to share with you, some of the key factors that emerged from that research. And then hopefully hear some things from you as well. In your experience, have you seen this? You know, how can we coach and advise leaders to manage these tensions? And as you’ll see, as I talk and why I talk about tensions, there certainly are some tensions in amongst all of this. But hopefully that sounds interesting to you. And as I said, I’ll keep an eye on the comments. And thank you. For those of you who I can see, you’re introducing yourselves. That’s fantastic. Lovely to see global audience there as well and look forward to hearing from you shortly. So let me say. Right, so one of the first and most important, perhaps things that I discovered early on when embarking on this research was that it’s really the companies who are already successful that are in the biggest danger of growth stalls and the decline that tends to follow it. So very concerning, particularly since most of my clients are large organizations. And the reason for that wasn’t just because those organizations have the most to lose, although typically they do, but it’s actually they because it’s more likely that they won’t change fast enough. And so, one of the big reasons for this, it’s precisely because they’re quite good at what they do, or at least have been in the past, that, that past success creates certain mindsets and behaviours, that can inhibit change. No doubt some of you have seen that in your own coaching and working with leaders and that limits the future growth because obviously the world changes at quite a pace. So, it’s very much a case of what got you here won’t get you there. And often at the organizational level, by the time that becomes undeniably obvious, it’s quite late down the line and very hard to recover. So, what I want to do first is to start by introducing us to this concept using a couple of real-world examples. So, I’m going to show a chart hopefully. Yeah, there we go. Now I want to ask and I’m going to keep my eye on the chat, but who can guess which company’s market share is represented by this graph here? Please put your guesses in the chart. This and the dates will give you another clue. But this is a company that’s often cited as an example of a once very successful organization. Oh, yes, well done Christian. Yes so, I can see already somebody has said Nokia. So once very successful organization which failed to adapt. Absolutely a very good example of a company that failed to maintain their market share. So as you can see from the graph, I can now reveal, well done Christian, Nokia yet had over 50% of market share in early 2007, which then fell quite rapidly to just 3% of global sales by mid 2013. Now there’s a lot of analysis, which highlights the factors that contributed to this and most conclude this was not down to gaps in technical know-how or competence. Instead, they often conclude that this was down to the sorts of things within our world, within our remit. So, leadership decisions, management style is often cited as one of the factors. So often sort of pitch does that the challenge in adapting to newcomers to the market namely Apple and Google but inhibited by things like senior management style, lack of accountability, ineffective decision making, problems with not innovating fast enough, and also collaboration across what was a very large business. So all of these factors you definitely see coming into play and importantly inhibiting the speed at which they could react to the market. And that was very much what was seen as inhibiting their growth. And you can see similar examples in terms of Polaroid. For example, another organization in which top management cognition was identified as one of the main barriers to some their strategic renewal. Also, other examples you hear about is the typewriter manufacturer Smith Corona completely failed to adapt to the sort of computer word processing world, also identified as a cognitive problem amongst the leaders. So, you know, these issues, this could quite easily be on the surface attributed to things like ineffective business models or how they manage their finances or product development. Actually, many of the analysis highlight that when you dig beneath the surface, it becomes clear that a lot of this is to do with the things that we work with day in, day out, say managers and leaders, mindsets and behaviours. So, moving on, the second example, I want to… and Christian, let’s see if you can spot this one just as quickly as you did. So, to bring us up to a more current example, you can guess which organization they represent. So here what we see is growth compared to market average, not Netflix Christian. So, as you can see by the comparisons, we’ve got Dow Jones and the S&P. So, it’s a US organization. I would point you to look at the time frame that you see here. So, this company had an astounding growth early in the pandemic compared to the average for other organizations in the S&P 500 or the Dow Jones. Absolutely astounding. Good guesses on zoom, but not Zoom or Amazon. So where are we looking just at that chart so early in the pandemic really started to accelerate their growth. I’m going to give you a couple more hints. So, tech is involved but it is not I wouldn’t say a tech company, it’s tech enabled in-home activity US organization many other guest is there. Dare I say fitness. Anybody gets tech enabled fitness. What comes to mind? I’m going to reveal if anyone’s typing. You’ve got about 5 seconds. Yes well done, Allison. Just got in there. Just just inside. So, Peloton, absolutely astounding growth. Now, of course, for them, critics would argue, well, it was just lucky, you know, the timing of the pandemic. But you do you know; this did start slightly before the pandemic really came into hitting. You could see that they had some good foundations, a good concept. So, I’ll come on to analyze some of those factors and bring them out later. But astounding growth. However, oh, unknown. An unknown in Poland. Is that right? OK. Well, look them up after this. So let me just highlight the second thing that is important to make. Well, first of all, important conclusions to draw from. This is how steady growth tends to be so that the turquoise on the orange colors is the typical growth rate for the entire S&P 500. So, it tends to be very steady growth. So that’s the first point. But the second point, if I reveal the rest of the graph, you’ll see how very hard it is to sustain. So, for those, apparently Peloton haven’t made it to Sweden yet either. So, Peloton basically it’s tech enabled exercise bikes and also now running machines whereby you are connected into a network of it’s an online class. So, it’s a life. I think it’s a live class that anyone else who’s got a Peloton I don’t might be able to fill us in. So anyway, it’s that sort of thing. We’ll come back to some of the detail later. So, yes, very hard to maintain. So, what is going on here and what are the factors that firstly feed into that very rapid growth, but secondly, make it very difficult to sustain and how can we support leaders to enable sustained growth? So those are the key questions that I will set off to explore. So what I did find was quite a few good papers. So, as you know, I’m a part academic, so love finding a good paper on this. So, first of all, this paper did an analysis of the whole of the Fortune 100 companies growth over the past 50 years. So fantastic study. And what they can tell us is that growth styles are very common. Very common. So, 87% of those companies in the Fortune 100 had had significant growth stalls. All of them well, it’s sorry, 87% of them had had growth stalls at least once. So, what that tells me is all leaders should actually expect this. It’s more likely than not. And therefore, we should help leaders to learn to mitigate this in their behaviors and in their mindsets. And the other thing that they concluded in their analysis is that worse still, once this does happen, the companies lose on average 74% of their market capitalization. So, in essence, total value of their stock. So that is absolutely shocking. Well, it was to me anyway, so a very significant issue. But on the positive side, they conclude that it’s absolutely avoidable because they made the same conclusions that many of the analysis of the various organizations that we’ve looked at made, which is that it is typically driven by things under the leader’s control, i.e. mindsets and behaviors, how they make decisions. And as you can see from the charts on the right, which come out of their paper, they kind of draw this quite easy, easy to see. I suppose a comparison between the expectation of most leaders of organizations who want to try to succeed rapid growth is that it will be slow for a while and then it’s going to take off and continue to take off compared to the reality for most, which is that you might have some initial success and then it will plateau compared to the reality for successful organizations. And this is what we need to aspire to. It’s continual agility, it’s continual change, which of course, is very hard for employees to have to keep changing. And it’s almost that concept of change before you have to. So once before things start to plateau, change again while you still appear to be successful change game. So, it’s certainly not for the faint hearted, but not necessarily what you would expect. So, we need to sort of bust some of these myths in terms of how you think they’re going to achieve this if it’s what they want to achieve. So hopefully this is making sense. Just keep an eye on chat. But yes, absolutely will share all of these findings and any of the papers if you want to read them. So, what did I do? What did we do to underpin the work that I’m about to share? So basically, as you can see from the examples I’ve given so far, we did a wide-ranging literature review, pulling together both academic publications, academic papers, also what’s out there in terms of industry analysis of how organizations have responded to market changes and really dig into what are the characteristics of those. And we went back over the last 10 years. And then we did a deep dive into those organizations, but not just those who sustained growth over several years, but also those who didn’t, such as Peloton, as we just saw. So, what is it that needs to be done but also needs to be avoided? So, and drawing together all of that, we have condensed it down to 9 key enablers. So, I just want to share those with you and I’ll be very interested to hear your reflections about how you see these showing up in amongst the leaders that you speak to. So, prepare for a complicated diagram. So, nine key growth enablers. Now, I’m not going to talk through all of these. Some of them are fairly straightforward. I’ll talk through some of the less obvious ones. But what does become obvious when looking at all of this stuff is that the impact on the bottom line, i.e. revenue, profit and even market share. This really is a lagging indicator and pretty much if you wait until you see this hit the bottom line, it’s quite late down the line and very difficult to address. So really what organizations need to do is to start looking at the behaviour, they are much earlier leading indicators. So, the sorts of things that they see here would be much more sort of sensitive indicators of this. So, we sort of clustered them loosely in terms of different types of agility. Some is more to do with being Agile on the emotional side. Some is more to do with social activity. To do with people. Some is very much cognitive. Other instances we’ve kind of called this directional agility. So, it’s both direction but also pace. So quick, quick, slow is a term that sort of resonates quite a lot, knowing when to go fast, knowing when to slow down and reflect. So, I’ll give you some examples of some of this. So, I’ll just pick out some of, five of these I think. To give you a flavour as to what we’re talking about in the middle, what you can see that pretty much underpins all of this. It really is an overarching tension that sits at the heart of it. So, this concept of fixed the vision but flex the journey, it’s having that very clear, aspirational, but meaningful and motivating long-term vision, which doesn’t change, which remains constant. That North star, sometimes you hear leaders talk about. But very much being flexible and agile in how you get towards the journey. And that applies to leaders at every level, not just to those setting that vision, but to leaders at every level, being able to do this. And the problem is, as companies become bigger, as they grow, they typically become less agile, less responsive, more bit more bureaucracy comes in more layers. And you see this in interviews from the tea tree founder Tim Warrillow. He talks about Schweppes you know, of course, they’ve now completely soured past in terms of growth rate. He talks about Schweppes’ lack of agility as something that they very much use to their advantage. He talks about them as a juggernaut that made them a very good competitor. He said in one interview because it’s very difficult for them to respond to us. So as organizations get bigger, they get unwieldy, they get further away from their actual end users, customers, clients, whoever they are. And it gets much. It all gets much slower, much more bureaucratic. So how do you prevent that from happening? Well, it’s some of these things that you see around the edge what we found. So, I’m just going to pick on productive paranoia because it’s a nice term and quite an interesting concept that won’t be alien to you I don’t think. But productive paranoia describes that lack of complacency. Never been comfortable with the success that you achieved so far, because what that tends to do is to turn the focus inward on honing that, but very much maintaining that paranoia to keep looking outside, looking at what’s happening in different fields, you know, what’s left field as well, what’s coming over the horizon over there, what’s new, what’s changing? Are our products and services still relevant? It’s all of that. And productively, though, not getting too paranoid that, you know, you’re questioning absolutely everything but a healthy level of questioning. So, for instance, thinking of Pelleton, yes, arguably their vision was a good one. They recognized, yes, they’ve benefited from the pandemic, but it was a good concept in terms of recognizing that people were looking, wanting to exercise, that were also looking to reduce the commute into where the gym tended to be improved. Work life balance don’t want to have to commute in and go to the gym. That’s the office also in New York where they started people being frustrated by not being able to get into the waiting list for the class. So also, the founder noted that many people had old, dusty 1980s exercise bikes in their spare room or cellar or somewhere hidden away. They just weren’t using them. So so why was that? So however so good concept. However, what they have been criticized for in terms of those recent troubles has been very much attributed to not looking outside, failing to read the market, failing to recognize that inevitably there will be a limited demand. It’s quite expensive and the equipment is quite expensive, and they have tinkered with the cost, but it wasn’t about the cost. So, critics have argued that they were too busy focusing on dealing with the demand, so focusing internally during all sorts of operational changes. But they simply lost touch. Lost touch with what was going on outside. Didn’t question, how sustainable that spike was. So, this is the first thing to try to mitigate the continuing to look outside, continue to question never getting comfortable. So, changing before you have to. And this is coupled nicely with Fearless  Experimentation. So, what you see in the organizations that do this well is that concept of think big, start small, learned fast. So, they are very much testing, trying things out, but on a small scale, taking risks, but on a small scale at first. So to gain that sort of first mover advantage. Growth organizations, they act very quickly and often are doing lots of testing with new products, ideas or approaches. But they do this on a small scale before upscaling, and they don’t delay if it know, if it passes all of the testing, they upscale quite quickly and do that quite decisively. But fail safe, learn fast. Very much all about that. So continually evolving testing, trying out new things, pushing the boundaries, taking risks and all of that. So this you can see in examples like Tesco express so when the Tesco express concept for that smaller supermarket was first being tested. They absolutely used this they honed and honed and honed business model through testing. Through looking at the data and trying out different things. But then in contrast to that I wasn’t aware of was the fact that they bought and tried to establish a US chain called fresh, fresh and easy and absolutely didn’t do this with that. They tried to go too big, too fast without testing and ended up having to basically give it away, losing about $200 million. So, Fearless Experimentation. I’ll just give another two examples. So, and of the ones that are less obvious. So Enlightened Empathy, at the top there. So Enlightened Empathy. You hear that term sometimes in consumer x stuff, you know, people who really want to try to understand their consumers, but it does apply to both employees and customers. So, it’s about really putting yourself in their shoes to understand what drives them. But doing that on such a level that you can go beyond meeting their immediate tactical needs to understanding them to be able to potentially predict what might they want in the future. So, what might their future wants be? So, it’s very much about every decision being genuinely driven by customer needs. And of course, I think we all know, every company says that they do. But what happens is that as the organizations grow, other internal concerns actually take over and get in the way of the customer voice and customer wants. But the same can be said for predicting this in terms of attracting, retaining and motivating our employees. Because of course no, as we would all know, I would argue no organization can grow effectively if it’s losing either customers, or talent at a high rate. So, an example, a nice example I saw from fever-tree was it very early in the pandemic? They were quite decisive whilst we were all deliberating about when will this be over? They turned their office into a bar or their London office. I think it’s the London office, a large amount of into a bar. They just knew I made the decision. We’re never going to leave the space of people coming in and working in the way that they have turned into a bar. So, you know, quite a bold move, but based on the understanding of what that people would want, what would attract them back in when it was possible. And then finally so number five diverse whereas it diverse communities at the top left. So, this is about difference. This is about gaining diversity through your networks, both in terms of customers, but also in terms of your internal population. So many consumer brands do this well. You know, they recognize the power of community, don’t they, in attracting and retaining customers. So Pellaton users are connected virtually to live instructors, leading live classes. I think they can also see how their performance runs to other participants. So you very much get that, that sort of community feel and Nespresso and apple, they draw upon this very much in developing communities to kind of support that attraction of customers and loyalty. But to what extent do leaders do this internally? To what extent are we particularly post-pandemic building those communities internally where, as we all know, employee engagement and loyalty can be lower? I’m just noticing the time, I might just hurry myself along. And the so an interesting thing to talk about do tend to get carried away. But finally on the rapid evolution is another concept that I came across whilst doing this research. Now did you know that rapid. Evolution is a thing. We all think that evolution is slow, right? Evolution takes hundreds and hundreds of years. Well, what I discovered was examples such as wolves have found a way to survive the radiation in the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone. So, they’re living there and they have somehow evolved to not be affected by the radiation. Lizards living in cities that their arms and fingers have grown longer to adapt to climbing services such as buildings. This doesn’t have to be slow, even nature adapting to all of this. So, the key point being we just need to do things differently in business if we’re to try to adapt a bit quicker than we have in the past. Now I’m going to move on to ensure that we have some time for questions. I mentioned that these things are intention. Now, let me show you what I mean by that, by this diagram here. So, at the top, you have this concept of fixed the vision flexicurity, which, as I said, is kind of an overarching concept that all of these factors play into or support. But of the other things you have, the ones that I’ve described on the left here. They tend to be in tension with the things on the other side. So, I’ve talked about productive paranoia. It’s that questioning. It’s that looking outside, was wondering about are we still popular? What’s changing? Always so relevant. But that must be in tension with having the conviction in what you’re doing right. You can’t be questioning endlessly, perpetually, because you’ve got to commit to something and do so in quite a bold way. So, you don’t achieve significant growth by basically just stepping and sticking a toe in the water. It’s about committing, being bold, driving things forwards with confidence. So that has to be in tension with that. The third tension, it’s about balancing the experimentation, which is all about exploring different options, small scale, sort of diversifying with… actually. We have to just make a decision here and doing that in a way that is not influenced by biases. So there’s a lot of information about the importance of non-biased decision making in this. So, for instance, avoiding the sunk costs fallacy many companies Gillette’s a good example of a company that is confident enough to ditch a product even when it’s still popular, because they’re just pre-empting the fact that people will soon get bored. So change before you have to again, that concept. So overcoming that, overcoming risk aversion, even internal politics, you know, not hanging on to historical things that, you know, we feel we have to do because we’ve always done. And there absolutely was a less is more concept. So difficult decisions having to be made to narrow it down from this experimentation to some a small number of clear priorities. So very much avoiding the myth that to grow, we have to do more. More and more and more and more is better. Absolutely it doesn’t appear to be the case when you look at the companies to do this. Well, because I think it makes sense when you think about it. You can’t move at pace on everything all at once. So having very clear priorities was also important. And then fourthly, so on the one hand, you’ve got that very understanding, that in-depth understanding of Enlightened Empathy, but also, on the other hand, that there’s the concept of the leap of faith, which is where your innovation and creativity comes in. So, it’s about understanding what people want now, but also having that insight and spark to think they don’t know that they want this yet. But, you know, perhaps they might having that spark foresight and creativity. And the same applies to internal employees in terms of that belief and potential. If you’re going to grow, you really need to be leveraging your talent. I think this business psychologist certainly very close to home, that belief in potential. So, stretching people as well outside of what they perhaps thought they were capable of doing. And then finally and I will allow some time for questions in a moment. So, the diverse communities that difference through, you know, the diversity of networks and who’s in, who’s connected, who’s within your network, different perspectives, interests, etc., that must be intention with the clear and unified alignment on what is core. So, making sure that there’s cohesion to move forwards at pace. Without different competing priorities, pulling people in different directions too much. So, a core set of priorities that everybody is aligned to. So hopefully that will make sense. Let me just see what we have in terms of questions. Oh, yes, absolutely. Peloton was the company that saw problems after the heart attack of Mr Big in Sex and the City. That certainly was. Well, that wasn’t necessarily entirely the decline wasn’t entirely to do with this Mr Big. So where are we at? We’re at 5:05, so it might not do breakout rooms. Instead, what I might do first at least, is to see if there are any questions. Nicola do you think that’s a good idea? Yep, Yep. That’s fine. Yeah I think looking at the time and I know it’s getting late in the UK and probably like wise for other people. So Yeah. Questions will be welcome. Be interested if people can that resonates with people. Have you seen, have you worked with leaders who have um, who you’ve seen struggling with these sorts of things or just navigating these tensions and any ideas that people have about how we might help leaders? I think it’s just put those questions on the side, how we might help leaders to navigate these tensions. And of course, as I’m sure Facet5 experts amongst you are already saying, there are some clear personality implications. And I promise I have not matched this to Facet5 in advance that you can, as Tania says, you can see the Facet5 factors there. So Tania, what jumps out to you in terms of personality implications? Yeah. It was just so odd that you just said that as I was typing, but it was a bit spooky. But yeah, no, obviously just could just see the, you know, the confidence, the leadership and how you kind of need all of them to kind of be a little bit in balance. But of course, it’s never going to be a smooth, smooth, easy, easy ride. It’s going to be a bit here and there. But, you know, much like what you kind of need as a whole in a company to kind of move forward, you kind of need a little bit of balance. Yeah, absolutely. So it does highlight to me and as you’re saying, really the import of those, or do we say a balanced leadership team, for example, in terms of personalities and making sure that you have that balance between people who would be naturally questioning versus naturally bold and just striving forwards that action orientation. So absolutely highlights the importance of that and also just making people aware of their preferences. Right, in terms of the fact that you are likely to do this. So, you need somebody in your team to help you pull you back and, you know, put a bit more emphasis on this other side. If not, you know, if they can do it for themselves, become real agile in terms of their own personality, you know, operating out of preference, right? Yeah. Any other questions. Or thoughts. Or comments. Alison Thank you, Alison. Principles and research behind the selflessness. They work with teams throughout organizations. You often see that fatigue as a result of the ongoing change. So, it’s necessary as a CEO. Yes Alison, I really do agree with you there because, in fact, one of the organizations that we’re speaking to about this already successful organization was very keen to accelerate even further and even faster. And what concerned us was you can’t just tell people to pedal faster when already pedalling really fast. So, this can’t simply be about pedalling faster, doing more, working harder, working more. It has to be about working differently to that. That was quite obvious to us before we even looked into this. You know, just what a psychologist you know about people is that there is a breaking point. Right and so we were really keen to find out. Well, it can’t just be harder. It’s got to be different. So different in what way? So, yeah, I completely agree with your point there. Often perceived as being change. For change sake. Yes, needs to be well explained. Absolutely but I think the concept of change before you have to is a difficult one. You know, won’t be comfortable necessarily for everyone, but, you know, for people who prefer more stability, then that might be quite an uncomfortable organization to work in. I don’t know if any of you agree with me on that. But what we can do to support those people, to make them feel a bit more comfortable with that I think is important. You know, and I think the usual sorts of things that we would go to, such as highlight the vision for stability, and then the more tactical things that more likely to change, trying to give people control and control the control levels and those sorts of concepts. Yeah Thank you. Thanks, Alison, for that. Any other questions, if anybody wants to just unmute rather than typing, and that’s absolutely fine, too. And if you’re interested in any of the papers that I’ve mentioned, anything really, by all means, please do get in touch with me. I’m happy to share those. That’s the first change before you have to. Yeah difficult to do. Absolutely difficult to do. And a lot of the things here tap into cognitive biases. You you might have noticed it’s just not natural to change when things appear to be going well. Right you have to sort of know or tell yourself rationally. It won’t be the case forever. And so, we have to change now before it’s too late, because it will be even harder to change once it’s too late. Very hard to do. And I think it does probably take a very skilled leader to get by in for that right. To get people to ditch, tried and tested with its products or approaches or anything. Yeah Christian, Thank you. Typical, of course, is this reflex push pull and the contract stroke expand tensions that results in growth. Yeah, absolutely. It certainly can’t be just hit the accelerator all the time and there’s got to be some of that push pull. Well, Thank you, everybody. I’ll keep my eye on the questions as you go. And I don’t think I have too much more to say in terms of conclusions. I think my takeaway messages for you, if there are any, would be that. And I don’t think I really be surprised to have to convince anybody of the need for change. Right know, we don’t hear about VUCA day in, day out. So, I think I don’t think we’d have to convince our clients that organizations must continue to evolve if that survive, let alone thrive. I think what we do need to challenge is the myth that this change has to be slow. So yes, it’s notoriously slow, but it doesn’t have to be. And the way to buck the trend in terms of change isn’t just pedaling faster than what they might take away message. Do it differently rather than faster. So, Thank you, everybody. It’s been fantastic speaking to you all. I hope you found this interesting, really happy news. Connect with me on LinkedIn. I’m really happy to have follow up conversations with anyone who’s excited about this area. But Thank you all.